In today’s episode, Taylor and guest Dr. Xuan Zhao take a dive deep into a topic that affects us all: asking for help. Xuan shares her research on why people struggle to ask for help and the relatable stories that inspired this research. Tune in to explore how community care can unlock moments of social connection and deepen friendships.
Mentioned in Episode:
Meet today’s guest:
Xuan Zhao, Ph.D. is a Social psychologist from Stanford University and founder CEO of Flourish Science, a mission-driven mental health and social well-being startup. She has 14 years experience in psychology, data science, and science communication with a PhD from Brown University and business training from Stanford GSB and Chicago Booth. Her research has been published in top academic journals and featured in the New York Times, BBC, Harvard Business Review, The Happiness Podcast, and the National Academy of Sciences.
Connect with Xuan Zhao:
Taylor Elyse Morrison
You're listening to Inner Warmup. I'm your host, Taylor Elyse Morrison, Founder and Author of Inner Workout, ICF certified coach, and fellow journeyer. In 2017, I set out to build a life that didn't burn me out, and I found my life's work in the process. On Inner Warmup, we talk about how self-care and inner work show up in your relationships, your career, your schedule, and then the conversations you have with yourself. We get practical. We get nuanced, and we're not afraid to challenge wellness as usual. So take a deep breath and get curious. This is where your inner work begins.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Welcome to season 5 of Inner Warmup. Each season, we explore a different theme, and this season's theme is about the power of support. We're moving away from the idea that we have to do everything on our own, and we're opening up possibilities for how to partner with others. We'll talk with practitioners like a primary care doctor, a therapist, and someone who works in personal finance about how to get the most out of working with them and what your options are if you can't afford the support that you're looking for. We're kicking off the season with Xuan Zhao, PhD. She's a social psychologist from Stanford University and the Founder and CEO of Flourish Science, a mission driven mental health and social well-being startup. Dr. Zhao's research has been published in top academic journals and featured in The New York Times, the BBC, Harvard Business Review, The Happiness Podcast, and the National Academy of Sciences. Y'all, I am so honored to have her here and even more so, I'm excited to kick off the season with her.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
I was really drawn to Xuan's research about Asking for Help, and some of our misconceptions around asking for help. So listen in to hear, yes, those misconceptions, but also what it can look like to really practically ask for help. And then we had a really beautiful and somewhat unexpected conversation about the importance of community care. I can't think of a better way to kick off the season, so keep listening. Hi Xuan, I'm so excited to have you on the show.
Xuan Zhao
I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
So we were chatting before this about the whole idea of this season and why I felt like it was really important to start a season about getting support and building a self-care support system with this a conversation that we're about to have today because Inner Workout we're 4 years old now. It still feels weird to say that, but yeah, we're 4 years old. And what I found, whether I'm working one-on-one with the community or leading a workshop, is that we really, really struggle to ask for help. I know that it's something I still struggle with personally, even though I do this work for a living, and I hear it all the time. So when I was looking up research on this season and really trying to get my mind around how to kick it off, I stumbled upon your article, and I was so thrilled to see that you'd done some research around this. So my first question for you is, why did you decide that this is a research topic worth exploring?
Xuan Zhao
I think we can all relate to the struggle you just mentioned, having difficulty asking other people for help. So for me, I wanted to understand why, and there are some good research before me that has identified different reasons. For example, we might be concerned that other people see us as incompetent or weak if we need to ask for help. It's really vulnerable because now people can say no to you, and it can feel very painful. And there are other people suspecting that perhaps it's because we don't think other people can help us. So all of these different reasons, or maybe we don't really know who to ask for help. We thought that perhaps, you know, based on the literature about how people oftentimes feel good about helping other people, like, whole social behaviors actually feel good, without perhaps another reason could be that we don't realize how much people can enjoy helping other people. And oftentimes, we think that we are burdening and inconveniencing other people, but we fail to recognize that, actually, people want to be helpful.
Xuan Zhao
So that's where the hypothesis came from on a high level. It's based on the research literature. But on a more specific kind of, like, how we started our first experiment. It's funny because I've been running a lot of experiments in a field site. It's a very nice greenhouse in Chicago. Nice place to run experiments in the winter. So the first set of experiments I was running there was about giving compliments. It was set next to the entrance, and we ask people to give someone, like, who they came with to the park to give compliments, and then we're just you know, it's a different set of study about how we underestimate the positive compliments on other people.
Xuan Zhao
It's about, again, about the kind of discrepancy between how we see things versus how other people see things. But then we were just there, and there's this beautiful fountain and people, they want to take pictures in front of this beautiful fountain - it's a pond. It's not a fountain. It's like water - water body. And then we just observed that people struggle to take selfies because the view is so expensive. People can't really capture everything in their selfie, and they don't ask other people for help. And sometimes when I'm, like, don't have many participants or just walking by will be offering other people, hey.
Xuan Zhao
Do you want a picture? And I just wondered why people don't ask for help. Like, seriously, just ask another person in around them to take a picture for them. And then that's how I started noticing where in other places, people also seem to travel quite a distance to avoid asking other people for help. So that's like the kind of experience, observations from real life.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Oh, man. I love that you stumbled into this research as a part of another research. Also side note, where did you say in Chicago this was? I'm based in Chicago.
Xuan Zhao
It's in Garfield, at Garfield Park. Have you been there? It's a beautiful greenhouse.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Yes. So we actually my husband and I, we took our engagement pictures there. And it's one of my favorite places to go in the winter because it's just to be able to be surrounded by nature when it's so gray and cold outside, man, I need that.
Xuan Zhao
It's my favorite spot to run experiments. And you can imagine it's so much easier for us to run experiments there because people are not rushing somewhere else. They just want to relax and enjoy their time there. So it's really a great spot for us experimenters too.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Yeah, and as you were saying, like, that struggle to ask for someone to take a photo, that's even something I've had to work through as well and I'll find myself, even if I can get to the point of asking someone, I'm like, who's the person who I think is most likely to say yes? Because I am so afraid that I'm gonna be a burden to someone like you said or that someone's going to say no. And it's strange because asking someone to take a photo is pretty low stakes, and yet even that can create so much anxiety in my body and so much fear, let alone some of the bigger asks that we might have of other people.
Xuan Zhao
Indeed. Well, I have another story. It's like, so recently, I've moved to California. I moved to California in the middle of the pandemic. So recently, I was at Muir Woods. This is the National Monument. And then, just walking in the National Park or National Monument, and there was this old couple who really wanted to get a picture in front of this big, tall redwood tree.
Xuan Zhao
And, of course, you can't take a selfie in front of a redwood tree. And they just struggled to ask for help. And then there was another woman sitting on a bench, and she seems to be on her laptop. And then the woman, the wife wanted to ask her for help. And the husband was, like, saying something like, 'Honey, don't bother her, she's working.', and then the wife just approached her and asked, 'can you take a picture?', and that woman was like, 'Of course.', and she just you know, her face lighted up with a big smile.
Xuan Zhao
And then the husband was like, oh, really? Can you help us? Like, he seemed so surprised. That was, that's the kind of dynamics out there that I find fascinating. It's something so small, but, no. This is also a thought exercise. Like, if you think about asking another person how willing do you think they would be to do it versus you imagine another person asking you if they can help, then how willing would you be to do it. And I think that can help people to recognize the discrepancy between how we think other people will respond versus how you would respond if you were that person.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Yeah. Because I love helping people. Like, it brings me so much joy to connect people who I think could benefit each other or even earlier today, I was so happy because my friend who lives down the street, she asked if I could pick up some packages for her. We have keys to each other's place. If I could pick up some packages and put them in her apartment because she is in another part of the city today. And, like, the fact that she felt comfortable enough to ask me and the fact that we have keys to each other's place, like, it feels so special. And I know that with that same friend, I had an issue where, again, she lives down the street. We both have cars, but my car broke down.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
I ended up renting a car rather than ask her if I could use her car, and then she was just like, Taylor, You know, my car was just parked on the street, why didn't you ask me? So then the next time I had car issues, then she ended up coming to pick me up from Costco and helping me out, but, yeah. It's so strange how even though I know she felt comfortable asking me for something, I still struggled to ask in return. And so I really should have participated in that thought exercise that you offered and sat in the joy that I feel when she asked me for help and imagined that it's possible she could feel that same joy too.
Xuan Zhao
Totally. We say that sometimes, you know, asking for help unlocks a moment of kindness because other people want to be helpful, but they don't necessarily know that you need help and they can help you. Right? If you explain what kind of help you need, if you essentially give people an opportunity to kind of practice an act of kindness. So really, if thinking it in that way can help us remove some of the psychological barriers, I would encourage people to think about it, unlocking a moment of kindness, unlocking a moment of social connection, and maybe friendship too.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Yeah. I like that. Unlocking a moment of kindness, of connection, of friendship. You also said something important there, like being clear in what we're asking for. I know sometimes we might want to hint at the fact that we want help, but it makes it a lot easier for someone to help us if they know what we need. Are there any other things that we can do to make asking for help easier, or do you feel like we covered it?
Xuan Zhao
You know, we just say talk a bit more about ask how to ask for help, this SMART criteria that I really love about the Specific, asking for something that's Meaningful, so that's S and M and Action Oriented and Realistic and also Time-bounded, so SMART criteria for asking for help. I think just thinking about you know, if people struggle to ask for help, then you can think about, oh, is this, am I making a SMART ask? And if you are making a SMART ask, you should feel good that chances are you may get a yes or at least, you are not being ridiculous. Like, sometimes we might be concerned we are being ridiculous asking others for help. So I think that could be a useful another thing to think about. I don't know - I'm sure that's one. But anyway.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
That was lovely. And I think that that's just a really tangible reminder. It's the difference from kind of being like, man, it would I'm just so busy. It would be so nice if someone could help me out, where that's a little passive aggressive and no one knows what exactly to do versus, "Hey, I'm feeling really overwhelmed today, would you be able to come over and walk my dog this afternoon so that I can send a few more emails", like really specific, a tangible time, and something that would be meaningful to you. I think in so many ways, I've had so many of our conversations throughout the seasons come back to this clarity of communication and I will speak from the "I". I know sometimes I will hesitate to be direct because I worry that If I make a SMART ask that I will be too much or overwhelming to people, but it's actually, more of a burden when you have those murky asks where people have to decipher what it is that you really mean or what you need.
Xuan Zhao
Yeah. Indeed. We are not very good mind readers that we already know, so why not make it more clear to folks? Another thing I do want to mention, another kind of concern people have is that I might owe another person now because I asked them for something. There are two things I want to comment on. One is we actually overestimate. We have data from the same line of research. We overestimate how indebted other people think you are to them. They're like, it's actually no big deal.
Xuan Zhao
Right? But we think, like, we owe you big. That's one. Of course, we want to be grateful. Everyone should be grateful that other people helped them. Like, I'm not saying not to be grateful, but it's just like, It's not as big of a debt as you think as one. And the second thing I wanted to say is about if you feel that you own another person? Even do a favor for them, and, actually, you help them to earn an opportunity to ask you for help later. That's how we build friendship truly. Like, friends, we are there to help each other out.
Xuan Zhao
Right? If you are so self-sufficient, you never ask other people for help. It also makes it hard for them to ask help from you, and then everyone's kind of isolated. And that's so it's okay to owe another person and give some opportunity to later ask you for some help and, you know, that's truly how relationships evolve, how friendships evolve.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Yeah. It gets to be this give and this take and it doesn't have to be this perfect fifty-fifty all the time. You can trust that it will ebb and flow. And as long as you are able to continue to give and receive from each other in that relationship, like, it'll balance out over time. But I know with my friends, I'm not, like, keeping a tally with them of you owe me this or I did this much for you, and now I'm gonna cash-in. It doesn't feel like that. We're just there for each other when we need it.
Xuan Zhao
Yes.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
So I wanna switch gears slightly because we really started this conversation talking about your role as a researcher. But I know that you wear another hat too. So your company Flourish, it's just over a year old, which is a big deal. And I'm wondering how stepping into this role of Founder has stretched you as it relates to asking for help.
Xuan Zhao
Oh my god. As a Founder, you have to ask for help all the time. And there is no way to build a company without asking a lot of help from friends, family, inviting other people to join you to build this mission driven company asking for investment, or asking for warm intros into potential customers. All of it certainly takes things asking for help to another level because it's taking asking for help to a professional level now. And in the paper that we published at the beginning of the article, we share the story about Steve Jobs. And, essentially, it's this 12-year-old Steve Jobs, code called Biohulid, not only got his help on a school project getting some kind of machine component, but also he got a summer job from HP. So reflecting on this experience, Jobs later commented that most people don't get those experiences because they never ask. I've never found anybody who didn't want to help me when I've asked them for help.
Xuan Zhao
So, we quoted that story at the beginning of this article as a scientific publication. You know? But it's really a good way to ease people into the story. But now, like, having been in this founder journey for a year, I can definitely say that there are plenty of people who said no to me. When Steve Jobs said, I can't think of anyone who didn't want to help me when I've asked them for help. I'm like, maybe there is something about being Steve Jobs too, not just people willing to help, but there are surprisingly a large number of people who are kind enough to help. And oftentimes, even if they can't offer exactly what we're asking for, like, for example, investment, right, they can at least provide some advice or provide another connection, a warm intro. So people do want to help. It's just sometimes they won't be giving you the kind of help that you are hoping for, but you also come in with an understanding that you may not get what you're asking for, but you will still get some kind of help one way or another.
Xuan Zhao
And if you do not ask, if you do not reach out, you will get nothing. So that I've learned from my experience as a Founder.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
It sounds like it was really helpful for you to have written this paper ahead of time so that you can have this in your mind and be like, You know what? Steve Jobs asked, and I did research that literally says people appreciate when they're asked for help and they like to help and so you have something really that you can fall back on and remind yourself of. And now you're sharing that with us so that we can fall back on that as we're starting to ask for more help as well.
Xuan Zhao
That was helpful. Well, even that, I mean, when you get rejected or you when people say no when you're asking them for things, it will still feel kind of it stings a little bit, but you understand that, you know, this part of the process, you will get turned down sometimes. But just keep going and trust that many people want to help. So I think that's like, for me, it's a really helpful affirmation.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Yeah. I love having just examples to go back to you, whether it's this anecdote about Steve Jobs or, like you said, being grounded in the fact that I really enjoy helping other people and considering that possibility or even having examples of when you asked and something amazing happened. I know I've had that both in my professional life and my personal life where I just, like, put something out there and then all of a sudden it's turned into an amazing partnership, or all of a sudden, someone came through and helped me in a way that I didn't even realize could have been possible.
Xuan Zhao
Exactly. You have to put yourself out there. You don't know what's gonna happen. The only thing I know for sure is if I don't put myself out there, then nothing will happen. So that I know. So oftentimes, it's serendipity. Like, what exactly happens? I can't predict, but I trust that something good will happen.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Yeah. The only thing that you can control in it is your actions. It's like you could control your asking, and I've been really fascinated. This is so funny. This wasn't exactly where I planned to go, but that's what I love about these conversations. I've been really fascinated by this idea of Luck Surface Area, and the idea is basically that The more that you talk about what you want or what you're going after and the more you put yourself out there and ask, You're basically creating more opportunities for you to "get lucky" because there's literally more surface area, and so, that's something that I've been working with this year is asking for things, not just asking for help, but saying like, hey, do you know anyone who does this or actually right before this, I was at a networking event and we're launching an Inner Workout app and I am not a Technical Founder and I know really only 1 other person who's launched an app before.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
And one of my goals was to meet more people who have been through this process. So she was on this panel, I walked up, and I was like, hey, can I buy you coffee or buy you lunch or spend 30 minutes with you on Zoom? Here's my story. Here's what I know about your story. I would love to just talk to someone who's been through the process because I know there are things that I don't know. And she was like, oh my gosh, for sure. We're not doing this on Zoom. We're definitely gonna meet up in person because it's more fun. And now I have a new potential mentor all because I asked.
Xuan Zhao
It's amazing. You know, one thing I discovered is the Founder community, Fellow Founders, they are really strength of inspiration and source of inspiration, strengths because we kind of all know what it feels like to be a Founder, to start something from scratch. So when you see another Founder who you can really help in some way, I bet, like, Founders are especially willing to help each other because they all know how hard it has been. And for me, like, someone who's right now, like, I'm 1 year into this process, so I certainly know a few things, but I still have a lot more that I need to learn. So when someone who's less in their like, only starting this journey asking me for advice or for thoughts, I'd be so thrilled to help them because I've received so much help when I was at that stage. So I think that's the kind of paying forward kind of spirit that is in this community that I really appreciate.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Yeah. And I love that you brought up the community. So for us, we both have the sense of we've both been our Founders. We both experience building something. And I say all the time, like, if you are building something or you are a creative person or whatever it is, it's like it's so important for you to have people who both understand what it is for you to build something. And I have business owner friends who just, like, understand what it's like to send out a big proposal or understand what it's like when you're looking at your numbers and you're like, I hope I can still run this thing, and also to have people who love you and don't really care what it is that you do for a living. Like, just love you because you're you.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
And whether the business succeeds or fails, they're still going to love you because of who you are. And I know before we started talking, We are talking a little bit about the overlap between Flourish and this idea of, like, Community Care. And so I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about what Flourish does and how it helps people cultivate their own well-being and cultivate community well-being.
Xuan Zhao
Totally. So Flourish is this well-being app that really helps people to discover and learn and practice well-being actions with friends or family or colleagues. The reason is because, you know, if you think about the past decade, people have been getting increasingly aware of the importance of well-being and how well-being comes from small actions instead of, you know, major life events. We understand that happily ever after may never happen, But it's truly the small actions you take in daily life. So one thing we at Flourish are trying to solve is to close the last mile problem of science, to help people find out what actions could work the best for you, then do more of that. Another kind of realization over the past 10 years is, like, self-care in the past, you know, people often think about, for example, meditation or how you pull yourself together. But now, more and more recently, people have been realizing that social connection is a lasting pillar of happiness and well-being. And, truly, instead of thinking about it as self-care, it's more about how we can take care of each other, and that is where we advocate for flourishing together.
Xuan Zhao
That's why we encourage people to find their Flourish buddies or get into a Flourish pod where you can actually take actions together, inspire each other. For example, one of my favorite activities that we encourage you to do is three good things. So three good things help people overcome the negativity bias ourselves and recognize the good things, however small, in our daily life. And what we discovered is that if you practice three good things and you share your three good things with another person. That really brightens their day too. And when you read three good things from another person, It also makes you feel more appreciative about things happening in your life. So, truly, that's coming out of just self-care, right? Just like everything in your head, but also start to connect with each other and how that brings another layer of joy, another layer of inspiration, motivation.
Xuan Zhao
So that's how we've been thinking of Flourish, this kind of science plus social combination.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
That's so important, and I'm sure you're familiar with everything that's come out with the surge in general in terms of loneliness and how we're so isolated. And I do find that in running a company that talks so much about self-care, I'm constantly needing to remind myself and also feel a responsibility to remind the community that, like, we don't practice self-care as a means to reinforce some of the toxic individualism that we've learned. I talk about in my book how America is the most individualist country in the world, and so many of us have learned so much that we need to do everything on our own, including our self-care, including our Inner Work. It needs to be this insular thing. And that's part of why I'm so excited to be having these conversations this season to talk about the different ways that we can be connecting with other people. We are gonna be talking to a lot of practitioners, but you raised something really valid for us to be reminded of that we can be doing this with people and it can be as simple as talking about the good things that happened in your day and normalizing those types of conversation. Thank you for drawing that out because I think that if we were writing this on paper, I would be, like, let's underline it.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Let's highlight it. Let's star it. Like, We need each other. Hopefully, everyone is hearing that and internalizing that.
Xuan Zhao
Thank you. Yeah. We need to flourish together. That's what we advocate for. You know, another thing is we need to realize that our well-being is not just about ourselves. It really impacts other people too. So I learned this kind of the hard way, running a startup, my Co-founders. And when I'm so stressed out and don't get enough sleep because I feel like I need to keep working on things and don't really don't take a break.
Xuan Zhao
It actually my well-being or decreased well-being actually affects my Co-founders and makes them feel more stressed out. So, really, as a good leader, you need to take care of yourself so that you are making sure people around you, their well-being is not negatively affected by you. This kind of, like, the kind of connectedness our well-being is to each other, that's such an important idea. Another related example is there's research on this three degrees of separation of emotions, like, positive emotions, not only affects the person whom you talk to, but also affects the person's friends. So, basically, it can actually travels in social networks. If I'm having a good day, we really have such a happy conversation, and you go back home, and then you pass on that happiness to another person. And likewise, you know, when we have a kind of tense conversation. You kind of bring that emotion to the next conversation, next interaction you have.
Xuan Zhao
So really it's about seeing us not as isolated individuals, but the kind of emotions that travels in our organization, it travels in a family, and how we can together take better care of ourselves, for each other and also eventually come back to yourself too. So I think that's, like, the kind of connectivity is what we want to highlight in this kind of flourish together mindset.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
And I feel like that's such a great way to tie our conversation up because what you're saying I mean, we started this conversation with your research on the pro-social behavior of being asked to help and how good it can feel to be asked to help. And what I'm hearing you say and just what you stated is that that can travel too. So If we give opportunities to help and they are excited about it, people are honored. I know I feel often honored to have that opportunity, then they take that good emotion, that good feeling, and they pass it along, or conversely, if we are trying to do everything else, we're shouldering the burdens of whatever it might be in our personal or professional life on our own. Those negative emotions can then ripple out into our communities as well. And so asking for help really has the potential to be like this key that can unlock really positive or really negative emotions for ourselves, but also for the people who we are directly encountering.
Xuan Zhao
So well said. I want to write that down and frame that. And, You know, that's exactly the spirit. I also want to mention one more thing about, you know, how connected we are to each other and how sometimes we overlook that. Asking for help, this research is conducted with Nick Epley at University of Chicago Booth, Booth School of Business. So Nick and I also the complement studies, we also did that together. And the finding is in that line of research, we underestimate the positive impact of our compliments on other people. So overall, really, the bigger lesson, and we wrote that up with a few other colleagues, as a paper that we titled "Undersociality".
Xuan Zhao
The idea is that we oftentimes do not recognize the impact that we have on other people and how connecting with each other really can bring out happiness and well-being. So, yeah, it's not an isolated pace, it's not just about asking for help or giving compliments or having meaningful conversation. I think it's time to really turn around this kind of individualistic thinking and recognize the connection that's oftentimes maybe not emphasized in our current culture.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
This was just such a lovely conversation. Thank you so much for sharing your personal experience as a founder and someone who's navigating asking for help, but also just so much of your rich wisdom. I love how you're just like, Oh, yeah, in this study or this example, I feel so grateful. Speaking of being grateful, I feel so grateful that you spent some time with me today sharing your wisdom, and I know that the listeners of Inner Warmup are going to benefit as well. So if people want to stay in touch with you or learn more about Flourish, where can they go?
Xuan Zhao
Thank you for asking. By the way, I want to say, I'm also so much happier after having this conversation. So I'm really happy I said yes to your ask for help or, invitation. So yeah, if people want to hear more about me, they can go to my website, It's "Xuan-Zhao.com". People can just Google my name, Xuan Zhao. That's the first one that comes up.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
And we'll link it in the show notes too.
Xuan Zhao
Yes. If people want to learn more about Flourish, Just Google "Flourish Science". So Flourish Science, that's the name of the company. It's a public benefit start-up.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Oh my gosh. I love that. Well, both of those will be linked in the show notes. And, Xuan, just thank you so much for being on the show today, and thanks to everyone for listening.
Xuan Zhao
Thank you, everyone. Thank you, Taylor. So nice to be here.
Taylor Elyse Morrison
Inner Warmup is a collaborative effort. It's hosted by me, Taylor Elyse Morrison. Danielle Spaulding provides production support, and it's edited by Carolina Duque. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend, and if you're looking to continue your Inner Work, Our free Take Care Assessment is a great place to start. On that note, take care.
